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Sun, 06 May 2007

The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins is an 'Atheism Consciousness-raising book', according to the author. It makes the case for Atheism, saying Atheists should stand up and be counted, and stand against the growing tide (in the U.S. in particular) of irrationality and belief. Although as one of Atheisms most visible proponents Dawkins has 'make converts' to the cause, in this book he is mostly speaking to the converted, presenting the evidence.

The book documents the main arguments in favour of God. These are dismissed fairly abruptly; while a lot of pages are taken up going into them, they are probably not a comprehensive list. A book by a theologian or believer would probably be a better source for such a list. Nevertheless, Dawkins as a scientist does consider and list the opposing arguments. As presented however, they are extremely threadbare and easily dismissed. Mostly they are backed up by a willingness for people to take God (and Theology!) seriously: since so many people believe in God, it must be taken seriously, or so the reasoning goes. Not so: the proofs of Gods existence don't stand up and should be dismissed.

Dawkins makes the case that we should instead of investigating God, investigate why people believe in God, given the lack of evidence. He gives some good hypotheses in terms of Darwinian thinking: reasons why faith, accepting what your parents said without evidence, has survival benefits, that in other circumstances lead people to believe nonsense stories with faith.

Another under-estimated problem is the different definitions people have for 'God' and 'religion'. Most people from a Christian / Judaic background have a habit of framing belief and Religion in terms of the religion they grew up in. They may accept that you have a different God(s), but still view God(s) as something you pray to, that intercede on your behalf, etc. By confusing all the different aspects given to 'God' in the Christian tradition, they think that if you have 'proved' one of them, all the rest follow. If you prove / claim that something created the Universe, and label that God, then, they imply, there must be one overall, kind, monotheistic God, Jesus died on the Cross for your sins, that God will change the laws of physics to suit you (miracles), etc. Not so: all you have done is label something, not proved your religion. Dawkins (rightly) dismisses Buddhism, etc. as 'principles for living' rather than religions for the purposes of this book, and we need to be careful what we call religion, too.

Dawkins also makes a good case against Agnosticism. He argues we should be more forthright and say we are Strongly Atheistic rather than Agnostic. Agnosticism was created by Thomas Huxley to explain his beliefs. He defined Athiesm is a positive belief in the lack of God, a proposition for which there is no evidence. He argued that, until we have proof that God does not exist, scientifically correct to consider ourselves 'sceptics' on this matter, and neither believe nor disbelieve in God. This sounds good, however in Science there are huge numbers of theories that in practice we have no evidence for either way that Occams razor mows down for us. We don't claim to be agnostic about them, we simply ignore them until they are actually needed to explain something.

Which, given modern science and Darwins explanation of evolution in particular, God no longer is.

The later chapters of the book cover whether, despite the lack of evidence, belief in God or Religion is a good thing, whether religion gives a moral purpose and direction to life, and defines a sense of "Good" that Atheists cannot have. For this he goes through the Bible with a disbelieving eye, pointing to the horrors of genocide that it promotes in the Old Testament, etc. He points out that we don't actually use the bible for moral guidance, but instead decide our own morality: we pick examples from the Bible a la carte to defend our choices. We don't decide, as an Old Testament interpretation would put it, that murder of an non-Jew is acceptable; that rape of an enemy is acceptable, that killing non-believers and witches necessary. Instead we pick examples to back up what we've decided already. If you're going to do that, stop pretending the Bible is giving you moral guidance and instead accept that we decide.

Dawkins underestimates the social and ethnic aspects of religion. He is overly critical of religion, blaming it for much of the worlds violence, genocides, etc. It would be truer to say that Northern Ireland, etc. are examples of ethic rather than religious strife. "God says so" is just the ultimate argument.

But conversely religion is a cohesive element in most societies. I suspect that a cause of the growth of christianity in the U.S. is that its proselytising nature goes out to be inclusive in Americas highly mobile society. When work, etc. causes people and families to move across the continent, they will find a church to welcome them into the community. Its against this background that atheists are the most distrusted minority. Shared beliefs, whatever those beliefs, bring neighbours closer.

James Lovelock, (co-creator with Lynn Margulis of the Gaia Hypothesis) proposes that atheists can treat Gaia as an alternative religion, something to celebrate and to give moral direction to life. This I have sympathy with, that life is important, and to be celebrated, but not to be confused with something to be prayed to, or imagine that it is biased towards towards our existence.

In these times when people are again using religion as a justification for war, claiming a "clash of civilisations", this is a book worth reading, but beyond deciding whether gods exist we need to understand why people believe. The Darwinian arguments are as Richard Dawkins points out, just a start, but I think more is needed to explain religion.

Hello,
Please, do not feed off-topic to planet.debian.org
There are more suitable forums to the subject.
Regards.
Andre Felipe
Only a minority of posts that go to planet.debian.org are on-topic
for Debian; its mostly a social forum than a technical one.
Debian Developers have interesting things to say outside of Debian. :-)

Nevertheless, it was probably a bit overlong. I will break any long posts such as reviews in the future.

Regards
Alastair
Gibbon had a good line about religion: "The various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful."

Dawkins believes that the magistrate was mistaken: religion is not useful to society. I'm sure he has good arguments for that proposition, and there are certain obvious counter-arguments.  I doubt it's really possible to judge history and say humanity would have been better off with or without religion (Paul Johnson has a good line about this in the conclusion to his History of Christianity).  But I do know that in my own life I would lie and cheat more if I didn't believe my sins would catch up with me in the end; so I believe that certain religions do favour the general good.

There's an interesting, if lengthy, review of Dawkins's book at http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.25770/pub_detail.asp

Thanks for the pointer, thats an interesting review of the believers position. Sorry about the delay in replying.

One of the main problems of the debate between Atheists and believers is that of Faith: that it is acceptable (even required) to believe in a God  despite a lack of evidence. Dawkins, not accepting Faith, goes into a lot of effort to counter variious arguments made to prove God and finds them inplausible: Novak doesn't even try.

Instead he makes numerous references to how much richer Christianity makes its believers' lives, that 'Atheists is the main for comfortable men' and showing the support it has been to the afflicted such as Sharansky, etc. However if God does not exist then this is living a lie; we should investigate the essence of this support that religion provides, and build it on a firmer secular foundation.

His references to the horrors of the last century are contentious, to say the least. He implies with 'self-declared atheist regimes' that this was a pogrom mostly against Christianity. In Soviet Russia it was primarily against Stalins ''political'' foes:  his left-wing victims were largely atheists, too. The 20th centuries genocides were more bloody only because of the march of technology:  previous religious generations were just as, or more, vicious, but less capable in their slaughter. The Nazis and Fascists were most manifestly not 'self-declared atheists'. They were overwhelmingly Christian, and mostly with the backing, or at least acquiescence of the Church.

Similarly, there are good elements within 'Christian' cultures but, just as Dawkins argues that morality is taken not from the Bible, but from within the Culture of the time, how much of Novaks examples of 'Christian' culture, the 'intellectual and moral habits' can be said to be from Christianity ? Can they be said to be present during the Christian medieval dark ages, but absent during classical Greek civilization, for example?

The review is hugely condescending towards Atheists. Novak sees their views as child-like, compared to a richer Christian life. I think in part this is due to a different mindset between scientists and believers, in part caused by the dry, dessicated way we too often teach Science.

A theist looks at our reductionist world, reduced to a small number of interacting types of atoms, for example, and says 'there must be more than this', and heads for Supernatural. The scientist, viewing this Natural world while doing an experiment, marvels that while simple at the base, this leads to so much complexity and diversity that we know we don't know all of it yet (hence doing the experiment!).

Yes, Atheists make mistakes, and are blind to their own prejudices, just as other humans are. The difference with Theists is that they don't buttress their beliefs with an unarguable 'God says so'; everything is under debate.

Novak views science as a set of 'concepts and axioms to master',equating these with another set of beliefs in God. From this viewpoint its merely a subset, a smaller worldview that someone could choose to accept, to which they could add their own axioms, that there is a God.

But here he confuses Science with Mathematics: Science does not have axioms, sets of beliefs that are not questioned (or cannot be) within the system.

Science is not a set of beliefs, but a method of investigation. This is why Dawkins and others get agitated by Belief. It is fundamentally an attack on the investigative nature of science itself, which states that all is subject to proof and evaluation, including the scientific methods themselves.

Novak fundamentally doesn't get science. Its not a set of beliefs to accept if you belong to a category; something you have to accept if you are an 'evolutionary biologist' (is there any other kind?). I am not a biologist, but Darwins theory of evolution apply to me as a physicist: it is true, if even for non-biologists. Novak is disappointed in the 'lack of respect' or 'didactic' style of Dawkins, and thinks this unscientific: it isn't. Science does not give equal weight to both sides of an argument. Dawkins as a scientist examines the arguments for the opposition. He finds them weak, and dismisses them. Ultimately in Science one side is simply right.

This wrong view of Science means Novak fails to see the conflict between Belief and Science. Either there is a God or their isn't, and if there isn't, then religion is wrong, no matter how much people want to believe in it, or base their morality on it. Dawkins has made the case that there is no God, Novak has not answered that case.

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